Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

fireANDice

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Submitted by fireANDice on December 28, 2007 - 8:20am.

Ok everyone, this has been awesome! I truly appreciate all of your feelings, experiences and thoughts on this subject.
You guys and gals are AWESOME!! Smiling

Now, for the next question: Which MAC laptop should I get for my needs?

First of all, it's called a Mac Book, right??

Again, I'm simple. I just want one to get on the internet, play some games, down load photos (I'm HUGE with that!) and tweak them, home movies, watch movies, be compatible with my HP printer, download some music, burn CD's and I would like it wireless.

I don't want "just enough" memory to do all of that. I would like it to have enough to keep it running strong, and not get bogged down.

Any suggestions?

Thanks again everyone! You have helped more than you know. Smiling

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sugar_rush328

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

April 24, 2008 - 5:34pm

I would go for the new 17" MacBook Pro.

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revenge702

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 17, 2008 - 12:14pm

3 words... Widgets Baby, Widgets!!

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 19, 2008 - 8:45am

Ummmm, what's a Widget??

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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StinaM

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

April 20, 2008 - 3:58pm

fireANDice wrote:

Ummmm, what's a Widget??

I just found out myself what a widget is so I'm excited to tell someone about it, even though I'm sure someone answered you by now. Widgets are like mini applications that are kept on your dashboard of your Mac. They are awesome and you can customize you dashboard to have the applications that you use more frequently. For instance I have a lot of family in Portugal and sometimes I forget certain words when I'm writing to them so one of my widgets is a translator. Now I don't have to stop everything I'm doing to open another window I just hit my dashboard and there it is. Here is the link for the Mac widgets, check it out you will love it..

http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/

Now you know I have to comment about the Mac books too... Let me just say I Love mine! I used to have a PC and I decided to get a mac and I'm really happy I switched. Hubby is right, you don't realize it at first but its been 2 years and I have had no problems with spyware software's or even pop ups. At work I still use a PC and its a constant reminder of how spoiled I am at home with my mac.. I still have a lot to learn on the mac and like I said before its been two years since I bought it and I still learn something new everyday with this thing (widgets would be an example). Its fun because there are so many different useful applications and especially for photography, your options are endless. I highly recommend the mac book to everyone, and its true "once you go mac you never go back" lol , I love that..

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foambrush

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 17, 2008 - 12:17pm

all those widgets on Macs are also available on PC Yahoo has thousands, as well as all the nice visuals that macs have

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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revenge702

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 17, 2008 - 1:06pm

yeah, theyre also available for my cell phone, but i like em on my MAC much better.

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redmeme34

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 15, 2008 - 3:01pm

Ok, so there are good and bad things about both mac's and pc's.

But since you are leaning towards a mac you really should just stroll into an apple store and talk to one of the workers, for the most part they do know what they are talking about.

The nice thing about macs is that they are really nice for creating all sorts of things. I am pretty sure that the majority of macs now come standard with software that makes it pretty easy to create movies or slide shows that can easily be turned into DVD's for your family. More and more people are starting to use technology to keep their families updated, or just simple little works that you can send out for Christmas or birthdays. I have tried different programs for both mac and pcs for this kind of stuff, and the mac ones seem to be the most user friendly programs.

Mac is also good at making all of their products work together.

Don't worry about the memory a good idea is to buy the standard memory, and then go online and look for other sites that sell mac memory for a third of the price, and it is very easy to install.

If you ever have a problem with your mac all you have to do is call and make an appointment at the genius bar or your local apple store, and they are generally really good at figuring out what is making your computer sick!

One thing that really has always bothered me about macs is, and this will most apply to the rest of your family, but many of the game applications are hard to find for macs or they just take longer to come out with the mac version. I have noticed this since my family is big on the bigfish games and they have so many games, but when new ones come out they are often not available for mac users.

Oh, and if you do get a macbook go for the glossy screen, you will really notice the difference when watching movies and such!

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revenge702

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 15, 2008 - 9:52am

Once you go MAC you'll never go back Eye-wink

I have a MacBook Pro. I love it. I had heard over and over again that Macs were so much harder to use than a PC. It did take a little bit of an adjustment, but it would have been the same adjustment going from Windows XP to Vista anyway. I am sooooo glad I bought the Mac. My Dad bought another PC with Vista and he's hating it big time. Overall, my Mac experience has been great. Much Much Much easier to use. So much faster than most PCs. PLEASE buy a Mac!!

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foambrush

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 15, 2008 - 10:57am

Actually Mac's do not run faster than PC's and in most benchmark tests they actually run slower. Now if Mr Jobs wanted to see some fast MAC's he would allow people to build there own systems but then he couldn't overcharge for the weak parts available in your average MAC

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC

February 15, 2008 - 2:15pm

Too bad all that extra (alleged) horsepower gets sucked away by the Antivirus and spyware software that you must run on your pc (for the average user) - not to mention all the horsepower that's sucked away by the spyware, adware and/or virii that the average pc has..

Thank goodness us Mac users have realized that all that silliness is just not an issue with a Mac.

And to those that will chime in and say "there just arent viruses & spyware on Macs because they arent as popular yet" - who cares the reason why viruses and spyware are not an issue on Macs.. Until the day that they are an issue, i will continue to enjoy not having to worry about it..

"..Do you want to sell sugar-water for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?"

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fireANDice

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Re: PC or MAC

February 17, 2008 - 10:53am

*STANDING UP AND CLAPPING!!!*

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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revenge702

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Re: PC or MAC

February 16, 2008 - 12:00pm

That's what I'm saying. Its like putting a Corvette engine in a tank ;p

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revenge702

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 15, 2008 - 12:29pm

i have yet to see a PC boot up as quickly as my Mac

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foambrush

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 16, 2008 - 12:17pm

My PC doesn't have to boot up its been on for 43 days, no slow downs no restarts no BSOD's, but hey I know how to use a computer I don't have to dumb down and buy an over priced, proprietary, one guy controls it all Mac

but hey enjoy the kool aid

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 11:18am

Just remember that you are in the top 98% of the 'elite' PC users.. For the AVERAGE user (mom, grandma, or other 'first timers') you KNOW what will happen - the PC will be slowed to a crawl in weeks by spyware or virii - they will be forced to purchase antivirus and install antispyware, and all that other confusing, time-wasting, silly stuff.. it happens EVERY DAY, we see posts about it here EVERY DAY, everybody reading this knows exactly what i'm talking about.. Entire industries have been built around the problems that average Windows users have EVERY DAY. We all know that if you are already an above-average or elite Windows user this stuff is less of an issue.

I would LOVE to see you honestly post that you believe that a Windows PC is a better choice for the average or new computer user who just wants to surf the web, do email, store and edit photos, store music for their iPod, edit video and burn the occasional DVD - and who does not want to have to take a course on security and who does not want to dedicate their life learning how to keep their Windows PC running cleanly. You refer to these people as being "dumb" or having to 'dumb down', but just because they havn't used Windows for the last several years and they dont want to hassel with all those problems does not mean they are dumbing-down. I'd say they're smart for wanting to make more effective use of their computing-time.

Back on topic: Whatever model Mac you choose, get the standard amount of RAM.. if you start using photoshop or for whatever reason decide you need to upgrade to more RAM later, go to crucial.com and buy it for way less $$. One thing that Mac haters ARE correct about, some accessories are over-priced.

"..Do you want to sell sugar-water for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?"

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foambrush

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 11:37am

I can certainly say that yes a PC is better for an AVG user because an AVG user cannot afford a Mac. If Mr jobs would like to open up his game so people can build there own Mac then you would see something Mac users have never seen an EXPLOSION of Mac's.

You see the Mac as the OSX and its simplicity and ease of use,and you know what yes it is a very nice OS that is not buggy right from the box, but it comes with a huge price tag that the AVG person cannot afford. You HAVE to buy your initial hardware from Mr Jobs only and he over charges for everything because he can.

If Mr Jobs really wanted to make a push at Windows PC market he would allow OEM motherboard makers access to his precious Mac and allow Intel to ship CPU's with the Mac instruction set (that instruction set is the only thing physically diff from Mac to PC) to anyone who wants one.

A 2k mac is expensive to the AVG person so yes a 700$ PC is a legit choice because the hassle of reading some friggan directions is worth 1300$

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 11:55am

I think the average user can afford $599 and for many users, even shelling out for the higher-priced machines is well worth it based on the hassel they'd delt with in the past with Windows - heck, Windows is Apple's best sales tool!

And maybe i'm wrong, but it seems you base much of your argument on some emotional aversion to Apple's marketing efforts, not on what's actually better for the average user, sitting at home, wanting a computer that they can use and not have to fight with. They dont care about propriety CPU instruction sets or building their own .. they just want a computer that works without a hassel.. something any average Windows user would have to admit Microsoft has yet to deliver..

"..Do you want to sell sugar-water for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?"

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foambrush

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 12:08pm

599 thats a bit of false advertising isn't it? It comes with no KB or mouse, an 80GB HD, no monitor, 1GB of RAM and its a 1.83 dual core which is now being sold in value line PC's that cost under 500 with monitor 320GB HD's 2GB or RAM and dvd/cd burner

So again your mac just shot way past what a PC costs, another reason that if Macs were such great machines they would open up so the little guys could afford one

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 12:24pm

My dad's Mac mini was $599, the standard keyboard and mouse was ~$49, and the standard LCD was ~$200 .. total cost ~$750.. Heck, that's less than the $799 that you quoted the average user could afford..

again though, neither are elite Windows users, neither care about building their own PC, benchmark tests, CPU instruction sets or Steve Job's desire to control his hardware and rule the world - they just want to USE the damn thing.. like the vast majority of users out there..

and you know what? Funny thing - Those ~1-2 year old Macs run just as fast as they did the day the got them, they've never seen a crash, dont even know what "blue screen" means, and they laugh at the thought of having to use Antivirus software or getting spyware .... and they can do everything they need to do.. all without the fuss that is Windows.. Can the average Windows user say the same of their 1-2 year old PC? YES or NO ?

oh yeah.. my 72 year old dad and TheGeek's 64 year old dad can't play as many games on their Mac as they could with their PC's.. You got us there..

"..Do you want to sell sugar-water for the rest of your life, or do you want to come with me and change the world?"

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foambrush

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 12:35pm

Completely miss the point here, 599 doesn't mean 599 in mac land it means 599 plus all the other stuff we are going to back door you with. If there were an option to have others build Macs the price would drop instantly and you would have millions of people getting Macs and the vendors of software would be making games and programs that worked for Macs

and you don't have to be a gamer but with a PC you at least have the OPTION there are no limitations set up in advance by the people who sold you an over priced web surfer if you really need it that simple go get web TV

my comparison the other night was just from checking the Frys ad, first PC I saw and matching it to a Mac for price comparison and my quote was 699 with 20in LCD

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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revenge702

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 1:59pm

okay, lets put it this way... if both an equivalent PC and MAC were exactly the same price, which one would be better for the average user?

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 1:01pm

I think you are still missing the point about what 'regular' computer users want.. so let me try it this way:

Lets say you just won a contest: You can give away 50 computers, your choice of Windows PC's or Macs to all of your closest friends and family - NOT COUNTING the Windows/tech-experts that you work with or that you know. You can give them to mom, dad, neighbors, extended family, siblings, the finance lady at work - But only AVERAGE or first time computer users are eligible for your generous gift. All the PC's or Macs will be given to them just as they would arrive fresh from the store.. Because they will all be drop-shipped directly to them, you will not be able to pre-configure them, install anything, uninstall anything, or change anything.

The only catch is: Every time someone has a problem or needs help with the computer that you give them, they are going to call you and expect you to fix it or help them figure out what's wrong - not in person, OVER THE PHONE (no remote control help or anything else). Your support is limited only to the OS and software, hardware problems or failures will be taken care of by the manufacturer. However you will be expected to also help connecting/configuring new hardware that they purchase on their own such as printers, cameras, etc.

What do you choose to give to your 50 closest (average and first time user) friends that you will have to fix/support for the life of the computer? A Mac or a Windows PC..

I understand that your choice might be slightly skewed because cost would no longer be a factor - but the Mac Mini pretty much makes that point moot anyway. For the sake of argument this scenario also pre-supposes that you will know how to help/fix both Windows and Mac OSx equally.

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foambrush

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 2:25pm

Well as long as we are living in this imaginary land where Steve Jobs would give anything away I would still prefer to support a person with a PC. I really wouldn't want to explain over and over again that no you can't do that on your MAC because they don't port that product for Macs. I also don't assume that the avg person is so stupid that they can't be taught very easily how to keep their computer up and running.

I have never stated that a windows based OS is better than the Mac OS. I have always stated that a PC is now and will always be a better value for people and will always give a user more options right now and in the future.

If your dream comes true and say 20% of the people drink the kool aid you won't have to wait long to find out exactly how many holes you Mac truly has and what computer crashes are all about.

"To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so."

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Hubby

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Re: PC or MAC ?

February 17, 2008 - 2:39pm

foambrush wrote:

I have never stated that a windows based OS is better than the Mac OS. I have always stated that a PC is now and will always be a better value for people and will always give a user more options right now and in the future.

If your dream comes true and say 20% of the people drink the kool aid you won't have to wait long to find out exactly how many holes you Mac truly has and what computer crashes are all about.

Ahh.. ok.. YOUR priority is "value".. My point is that to many average users, the priority is "i want it to work", or "I dont want to waste my time chasing spyware and viruses"

and like i stated before: WHEN i have to worry about holes being poked in my Mac, THEN i'll worry about it.. It hasnt happened yet.. it probably wont happen tomorrow, and I doubt it will happen next month.. and even if/when it does happen, it will take years for the Virus/spyware makers to catch up to the 400,000 or so in the wild viruses and spyware crashing Windows PC's all over the world RIGHT NOW..

So until that day comes, those of use who's priority is "i want to USE my PC" instead of "I want the lowest price" or "highest benchmark PC", will continue to use our Macs virus free, spyware free, and (almost) crash-free.

and to be fair:

Mac's are not crash proof
Mac hard disks or other hardware is not immune to failure
Not every piece of Mac software installs perfectly every time (although that has been my personal experience so far)

--but not counting the hardware part (hardware is hardware), the ratio of those types of problems for Windows:Mac is about 10000:1 - mostly due to the prevelance of Spyware and virii in Windows, which as of today, Mac OSx is totally, 100% immune to.

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revenge702

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

February 16, 2008 - 1:41pm

haha. me love sarcasm. i'll give credit where credit is due... if you know how to constantly fix the problems on a PC, then they are great. Me, I dont know how to fix em and I dont have the time to fix em. Mac it is Smiling

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 9:44am

Yes, I'm glad you guys brought this question up!
Again, this would mainly be "Mom's Computer", so I hadn't really thought of games a lot. I don't play them, but the kids and Dad do! HALO is the main one they love, so the brain (memory) should be a bit boosted for this, uh?

As for prices, yes, I know they are expensive, BUT I'm hoping that I can get this for our 10th year Wedding Anniversary this month. After 10 years of loyal service, 3 children and lots of love.... I hope price won't be too much of an issue. I mane, how often do you have to replace them?! We've had this one for, 6 years now??

Again, I'm simple. I want to download pictures and play with them, get on the internet, print things, and have it wireless.
"Ahhhhhhh, wireless." Something my Father In Law let me try at his house not long ago. Bliss. Smiling

Thanks again for your help!

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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Ashton

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 10:01am

Okay...

Five comments later and you really haven't addressed my questions. So I'll work with what I got.

>>>Pop ups all over the place

You are most likely infected with Adware and more. Please visit our forums dealing with that matter. Your personal information may be compromised.

Yes, regardless which model you go with, you will have wireless capability. Now do you also have a wireless router?

The laptop "may" handle the original Halo...except for those parts where the monsters come from all over the freaking place later in the game.

It sounds to me that we may want to consider a better video card. If it wasn't for the games, a $1200 model would probably suit you just fine.

The warranty will be another issue. If you go with a "big box store" you can probably get a three year - cover absolutely everything - for about $350....the same as Apple Care.

Another item you'll want to consider is weight and screen size. Most of the more inexpensive models have a 13.5 " screen. My friend handled this issue by buying a 24" monitor for around $600.

I would say that perhaps the best thing for you to do is research the product through the online Apple Store and websites like Best Buy and etc. Then post the link and questions you have to us.

One final note...it would be nice if you could condense your comments into one or two posts, there is an edit feature to comments if you want to add more information.

Thank you.

In the New Year, may your right hand always be stretched out in friendship, never in want. - Irish toast

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 1:45pm

Sorry if I didn't answer all of your questions. I thought I did, but please remember,.... I honestly don't know much about computers.
I'll so some more research on them. But most people are saying I would need to go with a MacBook Pro for the games. (I personally don't like HALO either..) fine. But now I have the 2.2 GHz or the 2.4 GHz. What the heck is a GHz anyways?!

I leave lots of comments, just to let people know I read what they said, and to let them know I appreciate their feedback.
I'll try to keep it down though.

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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PatO7

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 2:42pm

Ghz...Ok, It is hard to explain but it is a measurment of the clock speed of your cpu. It can be used to measure other things.

Ghz= gigahertz

giga=the multipler for 1 billion

hertz=unit to measure frequencies

There are also Mhz (but verrrrrrrry slow for todays computers) The bigger the Ghz the faster your computer is Smiling

i hope that helps

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ArchiAngel

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 3:56am

snowchicka wrote:

Ok everyone, this has been awesome! I truly appreciate all of your feelings, experiences and thoughts on this subject. You guys and gals are AWESOME!! Smiling

Smiling

Now, for the next question: Which MAC laptop should I get for my needs? First of all, it's called a Mac Book, right?? Again, I'm simple. I just want one to get on the internet, play some games, down load photos (I'm HUGE with that!) and tweak them, home movies, watch movies, be compatible with my HP printer, download some music, burn CD's and I would like it wireless. I don't want "just enough" memory to do all of that. I would like it to have enough to keep it running strong, and not get bogged down. Any suggestions? Thanks again everyone! You have helped more than you know. :)

Definately time to talk to a "Mac Genius" at the MAC store to help you decide on the best Computer that Matches what you need and can afford considering they have quite a few preset "packages" availible and actually offer some customability now.

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 9:31am

I believe there is one not far from us. I'll have to get over there and take a look!
What about if I have problems with it, and it needs repair? Would I take it back to them?

Thanks for your imput!
"Imput".. *laughing*

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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EatYourHeartOut

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 1, 2008 - 9:36pm

I agree with Ashton in terms of what is most important is the type of games you want to play? A regular MacBook (there are 3 different levels to those with the only difference being the amount of memory to each one) is not going to be able to handle serious gaming (my opinion). The more expensive MacBook Pro is supposed to be able to handle a serious gamer. I just got a MacBook in late September 2007 or was it early October 2007? Anyway, I LOVE IT and if you're a student, you get a discount...

I was also a "hardcore" PC user or so I thought with my father being an IBM man and growing up with him working only on PCs (building them, taking them apart, lovely nerd stuff, etc) but once I got my Mac (me being brave and trying new stuff), I am now thinking of my next Apple purchase!

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 9:32am

Yup, I think you guys and gals have a point on this subject.
I was thinking of simple games that usually come with the computer,.... but then again, they are huge with HALO.
Might need to boost the brain a bit on it, uh?

Thanks for the thought!

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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damngina

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

December 31, 2007 - 1:31am

I've had my macbook for a year and LOVE it. And I used a PC for many years before that and thought I was a hardcore PC user until I got my macbook.

The macbook will give you everything you require, is incredibly easy to set up and is beautiful to look at. Iphoto is great for managing your photos & the laptop even comes with a built in webcam! You will love it!

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 9:36am

Nice!
Again, I had one (not a laptop) 7 years ago or so, and for some reason we went to a PC.
Why, I honestly don't know, but now I see why NOT to. Again, just not having to put up with the viruses and hackers would be bliss.
And like "Hubby" on here said, all I want to do is just run the thing on and have fun with it.

Thanks for the help!

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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Ashton

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

December 31, 2007 - 9:21am

I'll help with the specs, but first a few questions.

>>>, play some games,

What games specifically? This is a real serious question as the fundamental difference between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro is the video card. Most of what I'm seeing with MacBooks are a really crappy Intel Video card - it will handle a 24" monitor but not many games.

What kind of price are you willing to spend? There are going to be additional charges and such so give me your roof price and what you are actually hoping to spend.

Finally, it may help to have your zip code to check store availability. If you find that too personal, just skip that one.

In the New Year, may your right hand always be stretched out in friendship, never in want. - Irish toast

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fireANDice

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Re: Ok, PC or MAC is helping,... now, WHICH ONE should I get?

January 2, 2008 - 9:29am

Hmmmmm. Games. I haven't thought hard about that one.
Me, Psh! I can live without them,.. but the kids and Hubby are BIG on Halo and some others.
This PC usually gives them a hard time when they want to get on. (We have an external fan to keep it cool, it usually locks up on them, pop up's GALORE.... I think it's time to put this old computer DOWN. lol)
So maybe for the gaming, it would be a good idea for the Pro.
Would it stay cool enough for that? I've been told that the laptops have difficulties staying cool.
Other than that, I just get on it for the internet (which I would LOVE the wireless, and I play with pictures a lot on here.
My two electronic needs: Digital camera (heay, I'm a Mom!) and my computer. The rest I can honestly live without.... including TV.

Price wise,.. I know their expensive, but I think Hubby will be getting it for me on our 10 year Wedding Anniversary this month. So hopefully after 10 years of loyal service, 3 children, and lots of love I can get the better one like the pro. Smiling
lol

"It's never too late to become who you might have been." - Unknown

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